For centuries, the downfall of one global empire has been followed by the rise of another. America was top dog when the Soviet Union fell apart, but our guest argues that is no longer its position. We are now in what he terms ‘The Enduring Disorder’. Yes, the institutions we established after World War to keep order around the globe are still in place, but our willingness, and that of our Allies, to act in concert to enforce these rules has waned. That fact, according to Jason Pack, a senior analyst at the NATO Foundation, played itself out on the world stage in microcosm in post-Qadhafi Libya, thus the title of his book ‘Libya and the Global Enduring Disorder’. As I write this description of our conversation, while President Biden has worked hard to get the old band back together, it was too late to convince Vladimir Putin of the West’s resolve to protect an international system built on the notion that sovereign borders could not be changed by force. Mr. Pack shares much original thinking about how we have reached this point and the dangers inherent in its continuation. Be attentive, as I say, Mr. Pack unpacks a lot of political theory and practical examples of the unstable world which we now inhabit.